{"id":74024,"date":"2016-05-23T12:00:07","date_gmt":"2016-05-23T11:00:07","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/?p=74024"},"modified":"2016-05-23T14:39:49","modified_gmt":"2016-05-23T13:39:49","slug":"watch-first-interview-with-brazils-president-dilma-rousseff-since-the-senates-impeachment-vote","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/2016\/05\/watch-first-interview-with-brazils-president-dilma-rousseff-since-the-senates-impeachment-vote\/","title":{"rendered":"Watch: First Interview with Brazil\u2019s President Dilma Rousseff since the Senate\u2019s Impeachment Vote"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/Glenn-Greenwald-Original_350.jpg\" ><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignleft size-thumbnail wp-image-73676\" src=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/Glenn-Greenwald-Original_350-150x150.jpg\" alt=\"Glenn-Greenwald-Original_350\" width=\"150\" height=\"150\" \/><\/a><strong>(Para ler e assistir a vers\u00e3o desse artigo e v\u00eddeo em Portugu\u00eas, <a href=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/2016\/05\/portuguese-assista-primeira-entrevista-com-a-presidente-dilma-rousseff-depois-de-sua-suspensao\/\" >clique aqui<\/a>)<br \/>\n<\/strong><\/p>\n<p><em>19 May 2016 &#8211; <\/em>Last Thursday [12 May], Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff was suspended from the presidency when <a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/www.theguardian.com\/world\/2016\/may\/12\/dilma-rousseff-brazil-president-impeached-senate-vote\" >the Senate voted<\/a>, 55-22, to try her on the impeachment charges, approved by the lower house, involving alleged budgetary maneuvers (\u201cpedaladas\u201d) designed to obscure the size of public debt. Although she nominally remains the president and continues to reside <a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/www.bbc.co.uk\/programmes\/p01278h3\/p01279jg\" >in Bras\u00edlia\u2019s presidential palace<\/a>, her duties are being carried out by her vice president, Michel Temer \u2014 now \u201cinterim\u201d President Temer \u2014 and the\u00a0right-wing, corruption-tainted, all-white-male cabinet he has assembled (due to Brazil\u2019s coalition politics, Temer is from a different party than Rousseff). Rousseff\u2019s\u00a0suspension will last up to 180 days as her\u00a0Senate impeachment trial takes place, at which point she will either be acquitted or (as is widely expected) convicted and permanently removed from her office.<\/p>\n<p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/dilma-interview1-article-header.jpg\" ><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" class=\"aligncenter wp-image-74025\" src=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/dilma-interview1-article-header-1024x512.jpg\" alt=\"dilma-interview1-article-header\" width=\"700\" height=\"350\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/dilma-interview1-article-header-1024x512.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/dilma-interview1-article-header-300x150.jpg 300w, https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/dilma-interview1-article-header-768x384.jpg 768w, https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/dilma-interview1-article-header.jpg 1440w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\" \/><\/a><\/p>\n<p>On Tuesday [17 May], I spoke to President Rousseff in the presidential palace for her first interview since being suspended. The 22-minute interview, conducted in Portuguese with English subtitles, is below. Rather than subdued, resigned, and\u00a0defeated, Rousseff \u2014 who was imprisoned and tortured for three years in the 1970s by the U.S.-supported military dictatorship that\u00a0ruled\u00a0the country for 21 years \u2014 is more combative, defiant, and resolute than ever.<\/p>\n<p>Since he has taken power,\u00a0Temer has <a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/www.nytimes.com\/2016\/05\/13\/world\/americas\/michel-temer-brazils-interim-president-may-herald-shift-to-the-right.html\" >exacerbated the fears<\/a> of those who regard impeachment as an attack on democracy or even a coup.\u00a0Unlike Rousseff, he\u00a0is personally implicated in\u00a0corruption scandals. He was just fined for election-law violations and faces an eight-year ban\u00a0on running for any office (including the one into which he was just installed). Polls show only 2 percent of Brazilians would support him in an actual election, while close to 60 percent want him impeached.<\/p>\n<div id=\"attachment_74026\" style=\"width: 410px\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/michel-temer-540x360-aecio-neves-golpe.jpg\" ><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-74026\" class=\"wp-image-74026\" src=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/michel-temer-540x360-aecio-neves-golpe.jpg\" alt=\"Interim President Michel Temer waves with Sen. A\u00e9cio Neves, left, at a signing ceremony for new government ministers at the presidential palace in Bras\u00edlia, May 12, 2016. Photo: Igo Estrela\/Getty Images\" width=\"400\" height=\"267\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/michel-temer-540x360-aecio-neves-golpe.jpg 540w, https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/michel-temer-540x360-aecio-neves-golpe-300x200.jpg 300w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 400px) 100vw, 400px\" \/><\/a><p id=\"caption-attachment-74026\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">Interim President Michel Temer waves with Sen. A\u00e9cio Neves, left, at a signing ceremony for new government ministers at the presidential palace in Bras\u00edlia, May 12, 2016.<br \/> Photo: Igo Estrela\/Getty Images<\/p><\/div>\n<p>Worse, Temer\u00a0created <a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/www.theguardian.com\/world\/2016\/may\/13\/brazil-dilma-rousseff-impeachment-michel-temer-cabinet\" >a worldwide controversy<\/a> when he appointed 23 ministers, <em>all<\/em> of whom were white and male in a deeply diverse country, and one-third of whom are under suspicion in various corruption inquiries. And his government \u2014 beloved by hedge funds and Wall Street but very few other factions \u2014 has begun preparing the groundwork\u00a0for <a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/www.nytimes.com\/2016\/05\/13\/world\/americas\/michel-temer-brazils-interim-president-may-herald-shift-to-the-right.html\" >a radical right-wing attack on the country\u2019s social safety net<\/a>, which\u00a0could never attract the support of actual voters if it were subjected to a democratic framework. Meanwhile, as the Olympics arrive in Rio in 10 weeks, protests are breaking out all over the country\u00a0and are certain to become more destabilizing and disruptive as the Temer government attempts to cut some of the most critical\u00a0social programs established by Rousseff\u2019s party (which has won four straight national elections).<\/p>\n<p>I spoke with President Rousseff about all of these matters, as well as whether it is now justified for Brazilians to use civil disobedience against the government she describes as \u201cillegitimate,\u201d and the likely impact on\u00a0international affairs and economic realignment from this extreme and undemocratic change of ideology in the world\u2019s fifth most populous country and seventh largest economy. (Interim President Temer has not yet responded to\u00a0<em>The Intercept<\/em>\u2019s<em>\u00a0<\/em>request for an interview.)<\/p>\n<p>The interview can be watched\u00a0on the recorder below. A full transcript appears below that.<\/p>\n<p>httpv:\/\/www.youtube.com\/watch?v=r1nE8E-0u5E<\/p>\n<p><strong>Recent articles about Brazil from <em>The Intercept:<\/em><\/strong><\/p>\n<ul>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/2016\/04\/watch-exclusive-interview-by-glenn-greenwald-with-former-brazilian-president-lula-da-silva\/\" >WATCH: Exclusive Interview by Glenn Greenwald With Former Brazilian President Lula da Silva<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/2016\/05\/brazils-democracy-to-suffer-grievous-blow-as-unelectable-corrupt-neoliberal-is-installed\/\" >Brazil\u2019s Democracy to Suffer Grievous Blow as Unelectable, Corrupt Neoliberal Is Installed<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a href=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/2016\/03\/brazil-is-engulfed-by-ruling-class-corruption-and-a-dangerous-subversion-of-democracy\/\" >Brazil Is Engulfed by Ruling Class Corruption \u2014 and a Dangerous Subversion of Democracy<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a target=\"_blank\" href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2016\/04\/25\/globos-billionaire-heir-joao-roberto-marinho-attacked-me-in-the-guardian-heres-my-response\/\" >Globo\u2019s Billionaire Heir, Jo\u00e3o Roberto Marinho, Attacked Me in the Guardian. Here\u2019s My Response.<\/a><\/li>\n<li><a target=\"_blank\" href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2016\/04\/18\/after-vote-to-remove-brazils-president-key-opposition-figure-holds-meetings-in-washington\/\" >After Vote to Remove Brazil\u2019s President, Key Opposition Figure Holds Meetings in Washington<\/a><\/li>\n<\/ul>\n<p><em>(This transcript has been lightly edited for continuity and clarity)<\/em><\/p>\n<p><strong>GLENN\u00a0GREENWALD<\/strong>: I\u2019m Glenn Greenwald of <em>The Intercept<\/em> and I\u2019m here at the presidential palace, in Bras\u00edlia, to speak with the Brazilian president, Dilma Rousseff, for her first interview since being suspended last week by the Senate, after it voted to try her on impeachment charges.<\/p>\n<p>Good morning, madam president, and thank you for the interview.<\/p>\n<p><strong>DILMA\u00a0ROUSSEFF<\/strong>: Good morning, Greenwald.<\/p>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>: The last stage of the impeachment proceedings takes place at the Supreme Court, which is constituted of 11\u00a0judges; eight of them were nominated by the Workers\u2019 Party (PT), five of them by you. Would you say that the court and its decisions are legitimate?<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR<\/strong>: I do believe that the court\u2019s decisions have been legitimate. I don\u2019t think that the court will judge it; it\u2019s not the Supreme Court that will judge the impeachment proceedings. In Brazil, impeachment proceedings are judged by the Senate. The session is conducted by the president of the court, Judge Lewandowski. I hope that his leadership makes the proceedings more consistent. \u2026<\/p>\n<div id=\"attachment_74027\" style=\"width: 710px\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/brazil-senate1-1000x639-impeachment-golpe-brasil.jpg\" ><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-74027\" class=\"wp-image-74027\" src=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/brazil-senate1-1000x639-impeachment-golpe-brasil.jpg\" alt=\"The final 55-22 Senate vote to suspend Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff and launch an impeachment trial is pictured on a screen inside the Senate in Bras\u00edlia on May 12, 2016. Photo: Evaristo Sa\/AFP\/Getty Images\" width=\"700\" height=\"447\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/brazil-senate1-1000x639-impeachment-golpe-brasil.jpg 1000w, https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/brazil-senate1-1000x639-impeachment-golpe-brasil-300x192.jpg 300w, https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/brazil-senate1-1000x639-impeachment-golpe-brasil-768x491.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\" \/><\/a><p id=\"caption-attachment-74027\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">The final 55-22 Senate vote to suspend Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff and launch an impeachment trial is pictured on a screen inside the Senate in Bras\u00edlia on May 12, 2016.<br \/> Photo: Evaristo Sa\/AFP\/Getty Images<\/p><\/div>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>: But if the Senate impeaches you, you could ask the Supreme Court to reject that decision and\u00a0rule on whether there were indeed high crimes and misdemeanors. Also, the Supreme Court could have interrupted the process, but has not so far. Can a process being conducted under the authority of a legitimate court be considered a \u201ccoup\u201d?<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR<\/strong>: Look, these are two completely different things. The proceedings, according to Brazilian law, are conducted by the Senate. I can appeal to the Supreme Court, and that will happen at the appropriate time for my defense. But, in the meantime, it will go through the court. It will be undertaken by the Senate. The Senate is the appropriate court. After that, I can debate whether the proceedings were carried out accurately, whether they were correctly accepted, whether we were given a fair trial, and whether there was any interference in the proceedings. We are appealing this.<\/p>\n<p>We have not been granted an injunction, but the Senate is analyzing the request, which will be presented to the full Supreme Court. It has not been accepted by the judge. \u2026 He has not granted a suspension of proceedings. Now, they will have to deliberate.<\/p>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>: But will you have the opportunity to ask the Supreme Court to define whether there were high crimes? \u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR<\/strong>: The merits [of the\u00a0impeachment charges]!<\/p>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>: After \u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR<\/strong>: Afterward.<\/p>\n<div id=\"attachment_74028\" style=\"width: 260px\" class=\"wp-caption alignleft\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/gilmar-mendes-540x692-supreme-court-brasil-tribunal-superior.jpg\" ><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-74028\" class=\"wp-image-74028\" src=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/gilmar-mendes-540x692-supreme-court-brasil-tribunal-superior.jpg\" alt=\"Brazilian Supreme Court President Gilmar Mendes on Nov. 18, 2009. Photo: Evaristo Sa\/AFP\/Getty Images\" width=\"250\" height=\"320\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/gilmar-mendes-540x692-supreme-court-brasil-tribunal-superior.jpg 540w, https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/gilmar-mendes-540x692-supreme-court-brasil-tribunal-superior-234x300.jpg 234w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 250px) 100vw, 250px\" \/><\/a><p id=\"caption-attachment-74028\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">Brazilian Supreme Court President Gilmar Mendes on Nov. 18, 2009.<br \/> Photo: Evaristo Sa\/AFP\/Getty Images<\/p><\/div>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>: On the day after the Senate voted, [Supreme Court] Justice Gilmar Mendes suspended the investigation of A\u00e9cio Neves, defeated by you in the last election. Many people saw that and thought, \u201cThe court is behaving like a political actor. The suspension paves the way to bury the Car Wash investigation.\u201d Would you agree with that? What does this suspension mean?<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR<\/strong>: I think the suspension is strange; as far as I know, no proceedings have been suspended up until now. No Car Wash investigations have been suspended. But Justice Gilmar Mendes is not the only judge on the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court is composed of 12 [sic] members. Not all of the 12 [sic] members have similar dispositions, that of a real militant, an obvious militant, as Judge Gilmar Mendes does. His actions will be judged over time by the Brazilian people.<\/p>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>: Do you think there\u2019s a risk \u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR<\/strong>: We should not have double standards in our country. If you\u2019re investigating one, you have to investigate them all. No one should be spared from the investigations.<\/p>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>: Do you think there\u2019s a risk, after you leave office \u2014 if it comes to that \u2014 that Operation Car Wash will be swept under the carpet?<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR<\/strong>: That might be a threat, but I believe that there are many parties interested in the continuation of the Car Wash investigation.<\/p>\n<p>So I don\u2019t think that it will be simple to bury Operation Car Wash. I am more concerned about reverting back to the previous situation, in which the prosecutor general was not chosen from a list of three nominees, but was selected on the basis of their political alignment, which led to lots of inquiries being \u201cfiled away.\u201d So much so that the prosecutor general of the republic became known as the \u201cfiling clerk of the republic.\u201d<\/p>\n<p>After President Lula took office \u2014 and I carried on the same practice \u2014 what procedure did we adopt? We generally chose the first name on the three-nominee list. Why? To give the Prosecutor\u2019s Office more investigative autonomy and to stop the filing away of inquiries. I believe that there is a structure today \u2014 the Prosecutor\u2019s Office, the Federal Police, and segments of the judiciary branch, like the Supreme Court and the Superior Court of Justice \u2014 that is willing to undertake investigations. Now, no institution is immune to the political process. They all suffer the consequences of the country\u2019s political climate.<\/p>\n<div id=\"attachment_74029\" style=\"width: 710px\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/dilma-glenn2-1000x500.jpg\" ><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-74029\" class=\"wp-image-74029\" src=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/dilma-glenn2-1000x500.jpg\" alt=\"Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff and Glenn Greenwald on May 17, 2016. Photo: Erick Dau\/The Intercept\" width=\"700\" height=\"350\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/dilma-glenn2-1000x500.jpg 1000w, https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/dilma-glenn2-1000x500-300x150.jpg 300w, https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/dilma-glenn2-1000x500-768x384.jpg 768w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\" \/><\/a><p id=\"caption-attachment-74029\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff and Glenn Greenwald on May 17, 2016.<br \/> Photo: Erick Dau\/The Intercept<\/p><\/div>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>: Regarding the allegations against you: I know that other presidents, including Fernando Henrique Cardoso, and some governors also performed the budgetary maneuvers\u00a0that you did, although perhaps not to the same extent as you, but they did use them. I know you insist that the budgetary maneuvers are not high crimes and misdemeanors that deserve an impeachment.<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR<\/strong>: They are not high crimes just as much as they are not crimes against the budget. They are not crimes.<\/p>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>: But would you agree that the Fiscal Responsibility Act prohibits them?<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR<\/strong>: No, because it is not prohibited by the Fiscal Responsibility Act. What is considered a budgetary maneuver? The appropriation bill authorizes the process known as complementary credits. And what does it say? It says that if you expect to collect a surplus in taxes from a specific initiative, the surplus can be re-invested. So let me ask you this: Where do these decrees come from? The Superior Electoral Court. The credit I authorized was requested by the Justice Department, by the court.<\/p>\n<p>This is not a surplus from the general pot; it was an extra credit from individual headings, which is something extremely technical. Nothing was concealed. It crossed everyone\u2019s desks. The court has always done that sort of analysis.<\/p>\n<div id=\"attachment_74030\" style=\"width: 710px\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/temer-cabinet-brasil-golpe.jpg\" ><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-74030\" class=\"wp-image-74030\" src=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/temer-cabinet-brasil-golpe-1024x410.jpg\" alt=\"Interim President Michel Temer, center, held the first cabinet meeting to discuss the first steps of the government at the Planalto Palace in Bras\u00edlia, Brazil, on May 13, 2016. Photo: Agencia Estado\/AP\" width=\"700\" height=\"280\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/temer-cabinet-brasil-golpe-1024x410.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/temer-cabinet-brasil-golpe-300x120.jpg 300w, https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/temer-cabinet-brasil-golpe-768x308.jpg 768w, https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/temer-cabinet-brasil-golpe.jpg 1440w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\" \/><\/a><p id=\"caption-attachment-74030\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">Interim President Michel Temer, center, held the first cabinet meeting to discuss the first steps of the government at the Planalto Palace in Bras\u00edlia, Brazil, on May 13, 2016.<br \/> Photo: Agencia Estado\/AP<\/p><\/div>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>: I\u2019d like to switch gears now. You were the first female president of Brazil, and your interim replacement, Michel Temer, revealed his cabinet of 23 ministers last week: not a single woman or black person and one-third are accused of corruption. How did you react when you saw his team?<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR<\/strong>: Look, I think that \u2026 it seems to me that this interim and illegitimate government will be very conservative from every aspect. One of which is the fact that it is a government of white men, without black people, in a country that, in the last census in 2010, and I think this is very important, more than 50 percent of the population self-identified as being of African origin. So, I think that not having any women or black people in the government shows a certain lack of care for the country you are governing.<\/p>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>: Would you say that we have arrived at the end of Brazilian democracy?<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR<\/strong>: No, I wouldn\u2019t. Why wouldn\u2019t I say that it\u2019s the end of democracy? Because today, institutions can be disrupted, but they\u2019re stronger than you think. I\u2019m apprehensive now, because what happens under an illegitimate government? An illegitimate government tries to dress itself in the veil of pseudo-order; it bans protests and freedom of expression and, above all, shows an enormous willingness to cut social programs.<\/p>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>: OK. Since you classify this government as illegitimate, do you believe it\u2019s correct for Brazilians to fight against this government with civil disobedience, as you did after the coup of \u201964?<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR<\/strong>: I think they are completely different situations \u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>: I understand. But should Brazilians engage in civil disobedience to fight against this? I know the situations are different. But have we arrived at the point in which it is justified for Brazilians to fight against this government, which you\u2019re classifying as illegitimate, with civil disobedience?<\/p>\n<div id=\"attachment_74031\" style=\"width: 233px\" class=\"wp-caption alignright\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/dilma-rousseff-22-540x726-golpe-brasil.jpg\" ><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-74031\" class=\"size-medium wp-image-74031\" src=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/dilma-rousseff-22-540x726-golpe-brasil-223x300.jpg\" alt=\"Mug shot of Dilma Rousseff.\" width=\"223\" height=\"300\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/dilma-rousseff-22-540x726-golpe-brasil-223x300.jpg 223w, https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/dilma-rousseff-22-540x726-golpe-brasil.jpg 540w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 223px) 100vw, 223px\" \/><\/a><p id=\"caption-attachment-74031\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">Mug shot of Dilma Rousseff.<\/p><\/div>\n<p><strong>DR<\/strong>: I think that, in Brazil, we need to fight against it, protest it, and also exert some pressure on members of Congress. I think we need to urge all social movements to engage \u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>: And with Bolsa Fam\u00edlia [social program for the poor] now \u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR<\/strong>: No, I\u2019m just trying to give the example.<\/p>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>: But I want to ask only about \u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR<\/strong>: Because we need concrete battles \u2014 not a generalized civil disobedience. There will be some concrete struggles. People will have to organize in the most diverse ways. If you call protests civil disobedience, then I\u2019d say, yes, civil disobedience. Now, it depends how you define it.<\/p>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>: OK, but many people are now going to the streets to protest in your defense, in defense of democracy, and they are very worried that they can be caught up in this <a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/www.greenpeace.org\/international\/en\/news\/Blogs\/makingwaves\/president-dilma-anti-terrorism-law-threatens-brazil-democracy\/blog\/55874\/\" >anti-terrorism law that you approved<\/a> just two months ago.<\/p>\n<p>And when I <a target=\"_blank\" href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2016\/04\/11\/watch-exclusive-interview-with-former-brazilian-president-lula-da-silva\/\" >interviewed ex-President Lula last month<\/a>, he said he\u2019s against this law, because it gives powers to the government that are unnecessary and dangerous and subject to abuse. Now that these powers are in the hands of another president, do you think it was a mistake to approve this law?<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR<\/strong>: No, I don\u2019t think so. Do you know why? Because I vetoed all the items in the law that would make that sort of use possible. This law was approved in Congress; it is about the Olympic Games. It \u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>: That\u2019s what it\u2019s for, but it can be used \u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR<\/strong>: I know, but it doesn\u2019t have the scope to be applied to social movements or political protests. Everything that was somewhat vague we vetoed. So, I\u2019m sorry, I slightly disagree with President Lula on this matter. He would be completely right if it had been approved in the format sent by Congress.<\/p>\n<div id=\"attachment_74032\" style=\"width: 710px\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/brazil-kids-brasil-crian\u00e7as.jpg\" ><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-74032\" class=\"wp-image-74032\" src=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/brazil-kids-brasil-crian\u00e7as-1024x621.jpg\" alt=\"Children stand outside a small store in Olinda, Brazil, on Jan. 20, 2016. Photo: Rafael Fabres\/Bloomberg\/Getty Images\" width=\"700\" height=\"424\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/brazil-kids-brasil-crian\u00e7as-1024x621.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/brazil-kids-brasil-crian\u00e7as-300x182.jpg 300w, https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/brazil-kids-brasil-crian\u00e7as-768x466.jpg 768w, https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/brazil-kids-brasil-crian\u00e7as.jpg 1440w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\" \/><\/a><p id=\"caption-attachment-74032\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">Children stand outside a small store in Olinda, Brazil, on Jan. 20, 2016.<br \/> Photo: Rafael Fabres\/Bloomberg\/Getty Images<\/p><\/div>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>:\u00a0 The Temer government said that it would \u201cfocus\u201d on <a target=\"_blank\" href=\"http:\/\/www.theguardian.com\/global-development\/2013\/dec\/17\/brazil-bolsa-familia-decade-anniversary-poverty-relief\" >Bolsa Fam\u00edlia [social program]<\/a> only for the poorest 5\u00a0percent.\u00a0What impact would this have and how would the population react to that, in your opinion?<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR<\/strong>: Greenwald, I think people will not receive it well. Why? If you focus on only 5 percent in a country of 200 million people, 204 million, that would be 10 million people. Today, Bolsa Fam\u00edlia reaches around 47 million people. We need to clarify what the target audience of Bolsa Fam\u00edlia is. It\u2019s not aimed at adults. It\u2019s basically designed for children.<\/p>\n<p>The programs require a key condition: Keep children in school, vaccinated and provided with medical care. With that, we reduced child mortality. With that, we brought children back to school. It\u2019s not possible to create programs for the children without caring for their parents, families and mothers. And I think this clearly shows the regressive nature of conservatism.<\/p>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>: There\u2019s an American journalist, based in Brazil for a long time, Alex Cuadros, who wrote <a target=\"_blank\" href=\"https:\/\/www.washingtonpost.com\/world\/the_americas\/how-brazils-ruling-workers-party-lost-the-workers\/2016\/04\/24\/1b8f02f6-0358-11e6-8bb1-f124a43f84dc_story.html\" >an article in the\u00a0<em>Washington Post<\/em> three weeks ago<\/a> with this headline: \u201cHow the Workers\u2019 Party Lost the Workers.\u201d He pointed out that the Workers\u2019 Party has transferred a significant amount of money to billionaires, to the richest, to large corporations, and at the same time, has imposed austerity measures on the poorest. Is it because of these policies that a large part of your party\u2019s base has abandoned you?<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR<\/strong>: Well, firstly, I don\u2019t think that my party\u2019s base has abandoned me \u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>: But there are many supporters who now are not supporting you \u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR<\/strong>: Well, I have not observed this, quite the opposite, actually. I have seen a lot of support from my party\u2019s base and from the progressive base in Brazil. One of the results of this process was a vast regrouping movement. See, let\u2019s understand the scenario we currently live in. Brazil, as all other countries in the world, is now facing an economic crisis that started in 2014.<\/p>\n<p>Obviously, when a crisis emerges, the growth rates begin to decline, rather than rise, and you lose the instruments needed to implement counter-cyclical policies. We implemented counter-cyclical policies: in 2011, 2012, 2013, and 2014. In 2014, the fiscal capacity necessary for these counter-cyclical policies was depleted.<\/p>\n<div id=\"attachment_74033\" style=\"width: 710px\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/dilma-greenwald21-glenn.jpg\" ><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-74033\" class=\"wp-image-74033\" src=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/dilma-greenwald21-glenn-1024x576.jpg\" alt=\"Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff and Glenn Greenwald on May 17, 2016. Image: The Intercept\" width=\"700\" height=\"394\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/dilma-greenwald21-glenn-1024x576.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/dilma-greenwald21-glenn-300x169.jpg 300w, https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/dilma-greenwald21-glenn-768x432.jpg 768w, https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/dilma-greenwald21-glenn.jpg 1440w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 700px) 100vw, 700px\" \/><\/a><p id=\"caption-attachment-74033\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff and Glenn Greenwald on May 17, 2016.<br \/> Image: The Intercept<\/p><\/div>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>: I know, but during this period you helped many billionaires, many large corporations \u2026<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR:<\/strong> I\u2019d like it if you would explain to me where I helped billionaires and large corporations. Why? Because of the following: We did not adjust to the crisis by cutting social programs. We preserved Bolsa Fam\u00edlia, we preserved the PROUNI and FIES [higher education funding programs], we preserved all of the policies for small-scale agriculture, the food acquisition program, all funding for this small farming, our policies for women, for communities founded by former slaves, for the indigenous \u2014 all of these things they are trying to take apart.<\/p>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>: You said earlier that Michel Temer is building a very conservative government, and also that he is a leader of this coup, or least involved in it. Also, two weeks ago, Eduardo Cunha was removed from the presidency of the lower house of Congress because of corruption. Why did you choose these two people as such close allies?<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR<\/strong>: Let\u2019s be clear \u2026 I was even looking at this today. In Brazil, you have a process that, I believe, is perhaps one of the most distorted in the world. The number of parties is systematically increasing and every successive government needs more parties to form a simple majority and a two-thirds majority in Congress. To form a coalition you have to have a base of alliances. Larger coalitions cause decreased ideological alignment on policy. And you have to build very broad alliances. This is an extremely complex process. Beyond that, it has another feature. This coup has a leader. It was not the interim president.<\/p>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>: But he was involved.<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR<\/strong>: No. Wait. The leader is not the acting president. The leader is the president of the lower house of Congress [Eduardo Cunha], who is now removed from office. A little late, but better late than never, as I said. This leader, he represents a conservative sector, extremely conservative.<\/p>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>: But he was your ally for a long time, wasn\u2019t he?<\/p>\n<div id=\"attachment_74034\" style=\"width: 550px\" class=\"wp-caption aligncenter\"><a href=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/fora-cunha-540x389-brasil-golpe.jpg\" ><img loading=\"lazy\" decoding=\"async\" aria-describedby=\"caption-attachment-74034\" class=\"size-full wp-image-74034\" src=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/fora-cunha-540x389-brasil-golpe.jpg\" alt=\"A supporter of Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff with a sticker reading \u201cCunha out,\u201d in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, on Dec. 8, 2015. Photo: Yasuyoshi Chiba\/AFP\/Getty Images\" width=\"540\" height=\"389\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/fora-cunha-540x389-brasil-golpe.jpg 540w, https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-content\/uploads\/2016\/05\/fora-cunha-540x389-brasil-golpe-300x216.jpg 300w\" sizes=\"auto, (max-width: 540px) 100vw, 540px\" \/><\/a><p id=\"caption-attachment-74034\" class=\"wp-caption-text\">A supporter of Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff with a sticker reading \u201cCunha out,\u201d in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, on Dec. 8, 2015.<br \/>Photo: Yasuyoshi Chiba\/AFP\/Getty Images<\/p><\/div>\n<p><strong>DR<\/strong>: Hold on. He was my ally because he was with the centrist party \u201999, built the majority with the governments. He is not part of \u2026 It\u2019s a complex party; it\u2019s not an ideological party. So, you have to understand the fact that inside this party one finds many different characteristics. He inexorably, was, quote-unquote, my \u201cally.\u201d We began to have friction from the first day of my government, of my second government. During my first term, we had systematic friction with him. So this is an issue that is very important to be understood, because he will act \u2026 he works \u2026 under the cloak of darkness. He\u2019s very good at acting in the dark.<\/p>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>: In your opinion, could the change of government and foreign policy damage Brazil\u2019s relationship with the BRICS [association of emerging nations: Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa] and Mercosul [multi-lateral Latin American trading group]?<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR<\/strong>: I hope they don\u2019t do something this absurd to the country. I hope. I think that UNASUL, Mercosul, and the BRICS are some of Brazil\u2019s greatest accomplishments. To assume that it\u2019s possible for a country of Brazil\u2019s dimension not to have a close relationship with the countries of UNASUL, Mercosul, and the great achievement of multilateralism that is the BRICS, would be reckless. It is reckless. I think it would be, at the very least, greatly ignorant. It would reflect a huge ignorance of international affairs.<\/p>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>: You\u2019ve said many times that you will fight until the end against the impeachment proceedings, but if you do end up losing and have to leave office, what would be better: that Michel Temer stays in office without the approval of voters or holding new elections?<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR<\/strong>: Please forgive me for not answering that question.<\/p>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>: Because you\u2019re still fighting.<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR<\/strong>: Because I\u2019ll fight until the end.<\/p>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>: I understand.<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR<\/strong>: Don\u2019t ask me \u2026 Because you\u2019ll understand that if I asked myself that question, I\u2019d be giving up.<\/p>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>: You are known to be a very strong woman and have mentioned many times that there\u2019s no comparison between what you went through in the past and what is happening now, but the crisis has been very harsh on the country, and on you as well. Is this affecting you and your family?<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR<\/strong>: Look, I think it does affect us, it affects you personally, I even mentioned that the other day. On the day I lost the status of acting president \u2014 I\u2019m still the incumbent president of Brazil, and the legitimate one. I think it affects me in this sense: because it\u2019s unjust. Maybe the hardest thing for someone to withstand, besides pain, illness, and torture, is injustice. Why? Because you feel like you\u2019re trapped.<\/p>\n<p>Of course, after a while they said that I was a person \u2014 a woman \u2014 I think they assumed that I would simply resign. Why did they want me to resign? Because my presence unsettles them. Because I don\u2019t have foreign accounts. They totally took apart my affairs: I have never received a bribe. I refuse to consent to corruption. One of the reasons why they say I\u2019m tough is because it\u2019s very difficult to approach me and propose anything illicit.<\/p>\n<p>The injustice of this situation, the political injustice of this, the personal injustice, it affects me, it affects my family, and it affects all of us. The other day I said I was a victim, not a sacrificial victim, but a victim of injustice. I am a victim of injustice.<\/p>\n<p><strong>GG<\/strong>: Madam president, thank you very much for the interview.<\/p>\n<p><strong>DR<\/strong>: Thank you.<\/p>\n<p>___________________________________________<\/p>\n<p><em><a target=\"_blank\" href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/staff\/glenn-greenwald\/\" >Glenn Greenwald<\/a> &#8211; <a target=\"_blank\" href=\"mailto:glenn.greenwald@theintercept.com\">\u2709glenn.greenwald@theintercept.com<\/a> &#8211; <a href=\"https:\/\/twitter.com\/@ggreenwald\" >@ggreenwald<\/a><\/em><\/p>\n<p><a target=\"_blank\" href=\"https:\/\/theintercept.com\/2016\/05\/19\/watch-first-interview-with-brazils-president-dilma-rousseff-since-the-senates-impeachment-vote\/\" >Go to Original \u2013 theintercept.com<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>On Tuesday [17 May], I spoke to President Rousseff in the presidential palace for her first interview since being suspended. The 22-minute interview, conducted in Portuguese with English subtitles, is below. Rather than subdued, resigned, and defeated, Rousseff \u2014 who was imprisoned and tortured for three years in the 1970s by the U.S.-supported military dictatorship that ruled the country for 21 years \u2014 is more combative, defiant, and resolute than ever.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":4,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[180],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-74024","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-brics"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/74024","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/4"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=74024"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/74024\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=74024"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=74024"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=74024"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}