{"id":83758,"date":"2016-12-05T12:02:20","date_gmt":"2016-12-05T12:02:20","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/?p=83758"},"modified":"2016-12-07T11:32:10","modified_gmt":"2016-12-07T11:32:10","slug":"is-peace-possible-a-dialogue-with-johan-galtung-on-ukraine-trump-putin-gandhi-and","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/2016\/12\/is-peace-possible-a-dialogue-with-johan-galtung-on-ukraine-trump-putin-gandhi-and\/","title":{"rendered":"Is Peace Possible? A Dialogue with Johan Galtung on Ukraine, Trump, Putin, Gandhi, and\u2026"},"content":{"rendered":"

\"gary-corseri\"<\/a><\/p>\n

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\u201cBlessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.\u201d<\/em>
\n— From \u201cThe Sermon on the Mount\u201d<\/p>\n

[Interviewer\u2019s Note: <\/em>A man who has published more than 150 books and 1500 articles on peace and related issues; the founder of the TRANSCEND Network for Peace, Development and Environment.<\/a><\/em>; a man who has worked as a mediator with the U.N. and with various nations in conflict around the world, should need no little introduction\u2026 but I will recommend previewing the bio-data at Wikipedia and then beginning to sort through Johan Galtung<\/strong>\u2019s omnibus of articles, plays, books.<\/p>\n

Briefly, extracted from Wikipedia, etc.: Born in Oslo, Norway in 1930, Galtung first served as a professor at the University of Oslo, and subsequently at various universities around the world.\u00a0 He is known for his contributions to\u00a0sociology<\/a>,\u00a0political science, economics, history, anthropology and theology.\u00a0 <\/a>\u201cHe has developed several influential theories, such as the distinction between positive and negative peace, structural violence, theories on\u00a0conflict<\/a>\u00a0and\u00a0conflict resolution<\/a>, the concept of\u00a0peace-building<\/a>\u2026\u201d Frequently nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize [which he should have received long ago!], he was awarded the international \u2018Right Livelihood Award\u2019 in 1987.\u2014G.C.]<\/em><\/p>\n

Gary Corseri:<\/strong> I\u2019m here in the Washington, D.C. area, with Johan Galtung–master teacher, and originator, since 1959, of \u201cPeace Studies\u201d programs at universities around the world\u2026.<\/p>\n

Johan-sensei<\/em>–When my wife and I met your wife and you, informally, for lunch a week ago, we discussed doing an interview.\u00a0 And you sent me some ideas about your current interests, including, the crisis in Ukraine, which seemed of paramount concern to you just now.\u00a0 So, we\u2019ll start with Ukraine today, but, knowing you a little, being a little familiar with the treasure trove of your work, I\u2019m certain that our talk will ramify and develop its own course\u2026. But, first: \u201cWhy do you want to talk about Ukraine?<\/p>\n

Johan Galtung:<\/strong> I\u2019m working on it!\u00a0 I\u2019ve been in Skype contact with the parties\u2014the enemies!–\u2026 and there are many! \u00a0It\u2019s a complex crisis.\u00a0 Moreover, both Russia and the United States are involved.\u00a0 They\u2019re both former super-powers, and there is in Ukraine the possibility of another major war\u2026 which might soon become a nuclear war.\u00a0 Also, I focus on Ukraine now because it is closer to the area where I used to live\u2014in Spain\u2026. And, because the dangers seem to be more imminent.<\/p>\n

GC:<\/strong> Yes, I learned just last night, scanning the news: this is the 3-year anniversary of the Maidan protests.\u00a0 So, it\u2019s topical.<\/p>\n

And, of course, for the purpose of this interview, I\u2019d be remiss if I did not get your reaction to the US presidential election\u2026. And the results figure into Ukraine\u2026. Because, Donald Trump made a big issue of working with Putin.\u00a0 Do you believe him, do you believe that possibility?<\/p>\n

JG:<\/strong> I think there is a big difference in the campaigner Donald Trump, with his horrible remarks, and all his prejudices, and the President-Elect\u2014who announces himself as the President for all Americans! \u00a0While we are focusing on Ukraine\u2026, I was particularly interested in a statement made by a member of the Trump team about the 200-year relationship between Russia and the United States: the point was made that Russia supported what became the United States, against the French and the English empires.\u00a0 And that was Tsar Alexander I!\u00a0 So, from the beginning of the American War of Independence in Concord, up to the end of it in 1812\u2026.<\/p>\n

GC:<\/strong> Excuse me\u2026., you\u2019re conflating the\u2026 what we call the \u201cAmerican Revolution\u201d\u2026 with the \u201cWar of 1812\u201d?<\/p>\n

JG:<\/strong> Yes\u2026. It was all part of a \u201clong stretch\u201d of history.\u00a0 I\u2019ll note here that to the British, the \u201cRedcoats,\u201d your \u201cWar of Independence\u201d was a terrorist war!\u00a0 And the terrorists won!<\/p>\n

GC:<\/strong> Right!\u00a0 I don\u2019t think most Americans would frame it that way\u2026, but I think it\u2019s important to reflect on that\u2026.<\/p>\n

JG:<\/strong> Now, that first century of cooperation with Russia continued up until 1917\u2014the Bolshevik Revolution.\u00a0 And the 2nd<\/sup> century has been very far from the first\u2026. Now, in the Putin-Trump working model, there is a clear intent to turn back the clock to the earlier kind of cooperation.<\/p>\n

It helps to have a long time-perspective!\u00a0 This is the first time in my life that I have heard of a President-Elect, or a President, having an historical perspective! \u00a0I didn\u2019t find it in Clinton, or the Bushes, or in Reagan\u2026. I didn\u2019t find it in general.\u00a0 Not even in F.D.R.!\u00a0 That means that Trump is breaking a taboo\u2014the anti-intellectualism of the U.S.; because, in order to have a perspective of 2 centuries, he needs a little help from some intellectuals who have that knowledge!\u00a0 On the other hand, Putin doesn\u2019t have that problem.\u00a0 He is surrounded by intellectuals, and can confer with them as much as he wants.\u00a0 So, I expect these two men to cooperate.\u00a0 And they have announced that the first area of cooperation will be\u2014not Ukraine, but Syria\u2026.<\/p>\n

GC:<\/strong> As difficult as Syria is, as thorny and horrible, it may be easier to deal with than Ukraine?<\/p>\n

JG: <\/strong>Well, they are both very complicated, but Syria is the more immediate concern now.\u00a0 And, you see, Putin has an 8-point plan for Ukraine\u2026. It is known all over the world.\u00a0 They can work with that.\u00a0 It\u2019s based on \u201cFederation\u201d; that is, if you have a State with 2 nations that hate each other, you can keep the State, but make it a federation!\u00a0 (Russia, itself, is a federation of something like 190 \u201cnations\u201d!)\u00a0 Putin says, if you don\u2019t like the word, \u201cfederation,\u201d call it \u201cdecentralization\u201d!\u00a0 I expect Trump and Putin to cooperate about Ukraine on that basis.<\/p>\n

GC:<\/strong> For me, Putin\u2019s plan seems to incorporate a lot of Galtung\u2019s thinking: Find mutual interest\u2026. Something I gained from reading about you\u2014basic info on Google, and articles that can be downloaded, and, of course, your weekly columns at the TMS (Transcend Media Service site)–\u2026 the idea of the \u201cbuffer state.\u201d\u00a0 My wife, also reading about you [in Japanese] told me about your work with Peru and Ecuador: they had this border clash, this crisis, and you came along and said, Let\u2019s make this neutral territory, turn part of it into an international park, administered by both countries, share in the profits from resources carefully (in terms of the environmental impact) extracted\u2026 and all can profit from it.\u00a0 And, I believe it was a Peruvian leader who said: It will take 9 years to work this out, and\u2014<\/p>\n

JG:<\/strong> It was an Ecuadorian who said it would take 30 years to get used to the idea, and then 30 years to implement it!\u00a0 But, we reached an Agreement after just 3 years, and began to implement it 3 years later!<\/p>\n

GC:<\/strong> And now it\u2019s a peaceful border\u2026. So, we can be somewhat optimistic about Putin and Trump working together, embracing new kinds of ideas, creating mutual benefits.<\/p>\n

JG:<\/strong> I must say that I\u2019m more optimistic about Mr. Putin than about Mr. Trump.\u00a0 Some of his bad, old habits\u2014from the campaign of Trump–, mainly, to be angry and react thoughtlessly to any kind of criticism– seem to have surfaced again.\u00a0 I hope he will be wisely advised\u2026.<\/p>\n

Now, let us return to Ukraine\u2026. There is, in fact, no country in the world for which the \u201cname\u201d of the country expresses the nature of its problems!\u00a0 For example, if you say, \u201cDeutschland,<\/em>\u201d you mean the land of the Germans.\u00a0 \u201cNorway\u201d means \u201cthe way to the north!\u201d\u00a0 But, \u201cUkraine\u201d in Russian means, \u201cAt the border!\u201d<\/p>\n

[Here, JG pronounces the name in Russian.]<\/p>\n

\u2026. So, imagine: for centuries Catholic Europe is pushing Eastward; one country after another falls to the Crusaders, or the invaders, but that all ends \u201cat the border,\u201d at Ukraine.\u00a0 From 395, with the break-up of the Roman Empire, Ukraine is mostly Greek Orthodox!\u00a0 And, it has been divided all these centuries, invaded repeatedly by the West.<\/p>\n

GC: <\/strong>And, that\u2019s true now!\u00a0 An article by John J. Mearsheimer [\u201cWhy the Ukraine Crisis Is the West\u2019s Fault,\u201d Foreign Affairs<\/em>, 2014] describes the work of the N.E.D. [National Endownment for Democracy], spending some $5 billion between 1991 and 2013, funding \u201cmore than 60 projects aimed at promoting civil society in Ukraine.\u201d\u00a0 Of course, \u201ccivil society\u201d is just another misnomer or euphemism for Western values!\u00a0 When Russian leaders look at the chaos of the US-supported and largely-funded \u201cOrange Revolution,\u201d they do not see \u201ccivil society\u201d so much as \u201csocial engineering.\u201d\u00a0 And that is \u201cengineering\u201d aimed at Russia itself! \u00a0It\u2019s the spreading of surface \u201cWestern values\u201d\u2014the memes and myths, but not the realities of exploitation and militarism; extremes of wealth, power and poverty.<\/p>\n

JG:<\/strong>\u00a0 So\u2026, what to do?\u00a0 We have a \u201cnation\u201d divided by religion, and language\u2026.<\/p>\n

GC:<\/strong> And, ethnicities\u2026.<\/p>\n

JG:<\/strong> Basically, you have 2-nations-in-one.\u00a0 So, how can you elect a president from one of those \u201cnations\u201d and not expect conflict?<\/p>\n

GC:<\/strong> And the answer is?<\/p>\n

JG: <\/strong>Well, they could learn from the Swiss!\u00a0 Switzerland is basically 4-nations-in-one.\u00a0 Their “presidency” rotates among their different ethnic and language groups.\u00a0 The President’s Cabinet represents the different groups within the State: there are 3 German-speaking members; 2 French; 1 Italian; 1 Rhaeto-Romansh.<\/p>\n

GC: <\/strong>Rhaeto-Romansh?<\/p>\n

JG: <\/strong>Yes.\u00a0 Or, Ladino–they often call it that… It\u2019s a special Swiss group\u2014not connected with the nation of Romania\u2026. The point is, the Ukrainians could do something similar in a federation of their own.<\/p>\n

GC:<\/strong> A rotating presidency and proportional representation in the Cabinet. \u00a0And both \u201cnations\u201d are recognized within the federation.\u00a0 One \u201cnation\u201d is not trying to force its language on the other!<\/p>\n

JG:<\/strong> The language issue is extremely important\u2014<\/p>\n

GC:<\/strong> To be \u201ceducated\u201d in Europe is to be at least bi-lingual.\u00a0 For me, the rebellion of the Russophone part of Ukraine is quite understandable.\u00a0 Resentments have been brewing for generations.\u00a0 We\u2019re in a nascent stage of such conflicts in the US\u2026with our growing Hispanic populations, especially in California and Florida.\u00a0 And the Anglophones and the Spanish speakers don\u2019t know how to encounter each other; and both groups resent any sense of \u201cspecial treatment,\u201d or \u201cfavoritism\u201d or impositions from a distant central government\u2026. You have written about the importance of language in fostering \u201ccultural violence.\u201d<\/p>\n

JG:<\/strong> It\u2019s one of the key factors.\u00a0 You see, for \u201cmediation,\u201d you have to listen to all the parties\u2026without criticism.\u00a0 And you ask, \u201cWhat does Ukraine\u2014or any other State\u2014look like if your goals, your ideals are realized?\u201d\u00a0 And then people explain their visions, they look forward.<\/p>\n

GC:<\/strong> And you have written about \u201csychrony.\u201d\u00a0 It\u2019s kind of \u201cEastern\u201d: time periods interacting\u2014future, past, present.\u00a0 As opposed to \u201cdiachrony.\u201d\u00a0 That\u2019s what we have now!\u00a0 We\u2019re diachronous, situated in a particular space-time.\u00a0 But, you\u2019re saying, imagine and visualize the future.\u00a0 And, interact with that idea of it.<\/p>\n

JG:<\/strong> Yes, but not a long \u201ccausal flow.\u201d\u00a0 Gandhi spoke about the \u201cunity of means and ends.\u201d\u00a0 We cannot do terrible things to achieve wonderful results!\u00a0 And we can\u2019t project way into the future, hoping that \u201cexpedient,\u201d but immoral, measures now will turn out fine then!<\/p>\n

GC:<\/strong> \u201cUnity of means and ends.\u201d\u00a0 I wrote that one down, from your paper on \u201cCultural Violence.\u201d [Journal of Peace Research, Vol. 27, No. 3 (Aug., 1990)].\u00a0 Gandhi was speaking about 2 things: the \u201cunity of life\u201d and the \u201cunity of means and ends.\u201d\u00a0 And you wrote: \u201cNo life\u2026 particularly no human life, can be used as a means to an end.\u00a0 If the end\u00a0 is livelihood, then the means has to be life-enhancing.\u00a0 But how do we understand \u2018unity\u2019?\u00a0 A reasonable interpretation\u2026 would be in terms of closeness<\/em>, against separation.\u00a0 All forms of life, particularly human life, should enjoy closeness and not be kept apart by steep Self-Other gradients that drive wedges in social space.\u201d<\/p>\n

JG:<\/strong> You must listen to all parties without criticism.\u00a0 After they have expressed their ideals, you ask if their ideas are legitimate.\u00a0 You ask about their \u201chistorical perspective.\u201d\u00a0 Then, you are probing \u201cdeep culture,\u201d deep understanding.<\/p>\n

GC:<\/strong> Aldous Huxley quoted Blake about \u201ccleansing the doors of perception.\u201d<\/p>\n

JG:<\/strong> If \u201ccontracts\u201d have been made between parties, one party cannot just \u201cwalk out.\u201d\u00a0 We must be very clear about that.<\/p>\n

GC:<\/strong> That\u2019s the importance of \u201chistorical perspective,\u201d seeing how compromises, resolutions were made in the past.\u00a0 That\u2019s the importance of language, too\u2014being sure the other party is understanding us in their language, not just ours!<\/p>\n

JG:<\/strong> \u2026And all the time working towards a more inclusive future\u2026. Bridging legitimate goals will take creativity!\u00a0 So, Gary, you quoted Gandhi on unity\u2026. Gandhi was a genius.\u00a0 Another genius of the 20th<\/sup> Century was Einstein.\u00a0 Do you know what Einstein said about \u201cunity\u201d?<\/p>\n

GC <\/strong>(shrugging)<\/em>:<\/strong> All I can think of is E=MC2.<\/p>\n

JG <\/strong>(smiling)<\/em>:<\/strong> Einstein spoke about the \u201cunity of space-time.\u201d\u00a0 I am trying to understand different kinds of unity; and encourage others to think in terms of greater unity!<\/p>\n

GC:<\/strong> You\u2019ve taught me a lot in this short interview.\u00a0 I hope this little introduction to your work will encourage others to dig deeper, to understand more.\u00a0 So, one last question:\u00a0 How do we apply your thinking of the past half century and more\u2014I think our readers will not mind my wishing you a happy 86th<\/sup> birthday!\u2014how can we work towards a more peaceful world?\u00a0 Can we have hope?<\/p>\n

JG:<\/strong> To be so \u201calienated\u201d within one\u2019s society or nation or world, as to feel \u201chopeless\u201d\u2014that is to suffer a terrible kind of cultural violence!<\/p>\n

GC:<\/strong> Realism and hope\u2026. Can that be a \u201cunity,\u201d too?<\/p>\n

JG:<\/strong> I\u2019ll let you answer that\u2026. But, imagine this.\u00a0 [He points to a mercator-projection map on his office wall–] Let\u2019s say, our modern world can be divided into 8 great regions: There\u2019s the Anglo-American world, including, Canada; there\u2019s Latin America; Africa; the Muslim world; the E.U., or the European region; Russia\u2014which is really a \u201cnation of nations,\u201d a federation; East Asia; South Asia.\u00a0 Since the end of the Second World War, we have tried to unite the world in the United Nations!\u00a0 What do we have there?\u00a0 Something like 200 bickering nation-states.\u00a0 They compete to be heard in that forum.\u00a0 Then there is a Security Council, awarding the privilege of the veto to a fraction of the numerous states\u2026.<\/p>\n

People are working towards new kinds of unions, new unities.\u00a0 The SCO, for example [the Shanghai Cooperation Organization], with Russia, China and India working towards greater cooperation; and Iran is an associate member.\u00a0 We hear much about the New Silk Road, a high-speed rail system that China is developing, crossing from the port cities of China to ports on the Mediterranean and the Atlantic.\u00a0 There is also the \u201cNew Silk Lane,\u201d which we hear less about\u2014China and other nations in Africa and across south Asia, uniting in trade along the old sea lanes, with a fleet of better, faster ships.<\/p>\n

So, yes, there are terrible dangers to confront, cataclysmic challenges to overcome\u2026. But, imagine now, that the regions could unite, and that the people of the regions had representative democracy, and they chose a regional leader\u2026. Then, the 8 regional leaders sit around a kind of Arthurian Round Table.\u00a0 All are equal there.\u00a0 And they try to understand each other.\u00a0 They describe their visions of their ideal world together, develop their historical perspectives together.\u00a0 They report to their citizens about what they have done and what they have learned.<\/p>\n

GC:<\/strong> We have to change the machinery, the mechanisms\u2014political, economic, social\u2014that have governed our world since the end of WWII\u2026.<\/p>\n

JG: <\/strong>And longer than that! Do you think we might make progress then?\u00a0 Might we have greater understanding then?\u00a0 A world at peace?<\/p>\n

GC:<\/strong> How do we develop such a vision?…\u00a0 If we could teach the children to think in new ways!\u00a0 Shouldn\u2019t a \u201cdemocratic\u201d society enjoy the \u201cautonomy\u201d of peace?<\/p>\n

JG:<\/strong> Certainly, there would be differences; but we would dialogue about our differences.\u00a0 We would recognize our \u201ccontracts\u201d with each other to work towards peace, to develop \u201ccloseness,\u201d recognize and work against what I have described as \u201cdirect violence, structural violence and cultural violence.\u201d\u00a0 That has been my life\u2019s work: to develop modalities to understand how the three kinds of violence destroy us, how they interact, and how we can re-create ourselves.\u00a0 Can we strive for anything less?<\/p>\n

GC: <\/strong>\u201c\u2018T\u2019is a consummation devoutly to be wished\u2026.\u201d<\/p>\n

JG:<\/strong> Hamlet<\/em>, isn\u2019t it?<\/p>\n

GC:<\/strong> Yes\u2026.\u00a0 And I think of some lines from Tennyson, too, which I memorized long ago:<\/p>\n

\u201cRing out the old, ring in the new\u2026.
\nRing out the false, ring in the true.
\n\u201cRing in redress to all mankind\u2026.\u201d
\n\u201cRing out a slowly dying cause\u2026.
\nRing in the nobler modes of life\u2026.
\n\u201cRing out the thousand wars of old,
\nRing in the thousand years of peace\u2026.
\n\u201cThe larger heart, the kindlier hand\u2026.\u201d
\n___________________________________________<\/p>\n

Dr. Gary Corseri is a m<\/em>ember of the TRANSCEND Network for Peace, Development and Environment.<\/a> He has published and posted articles, fiction and poems at hundreds of venues, including,<\/em> TMS (Transcend Media Service<\/a>)<\/a>, The New York Times, Village Voice, Redbook Magazine and<\/em> Counterpunch.\u00a0 He has published 2 novels and 2 collections of poetry, and his dramas have been produced on<\/em> PBS-Atlanta and elsewhere.\u00a0 He has performed his poems at the Carter Presidential Library and Museum and has taught in universities in the US and Japan, and in US public schools and prisons.\u00a0 Contact: Gary_Corseri@comcast.net<\/a>.<\/em><\/p>\n

Johan Galtung, a professor of peace studies, dr hc mult, is founder of the <\/em>TRANSCEND Network for Peace, Development and Environment<\/a> and rector of the <\/em>TRANSCEND Peace University-TPU<\/a>. Prof. Galtung <\/em>has published 1670\u00a0articles\u00a0and book\u00a0chapters, over 450 Editorials for <\/em>TRANSCEND Media Service<\/a>, and 167 books on peace and related issues<\/em>, of which 41 have been translated into 35 languages, for a total of 135 book translations<\/em>, including \u2018<\/em>50 Years-100 Peace and Conflict Perspectives<\/a>,\u2019 published by the <\/em>TRANSCEND University Press-TUP<\/a>.<\/em><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

I was particularly interested in a statement made by a member of the Trump team about the 200-year relationship between Russia and the United States: the point was made that Russia supported what became the United States, against the French and the English empires. And that was Tsar Alexander I! So, from the beginning of the American War of Independence in Concord, up to the end of it in 1812\u2026.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":4,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[41],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-83758","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-tms-peace-journalism"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/83758","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/4"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=83758"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/83758\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=83758"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=83758"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.transcend.org\/tms\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=83758"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}